Hi folks. Our P275 is equipped with an RM69 toilet which has a three way valve attached to the pump, plus a holding tank. The pump can flush the bowl, pump waste overboard, pump waste into the tank or empty the tank. It is a very flexible arrangement. After many years of faithful working the bowl fills up after being emptied, presumably running back from the holding tank. Instead of simply buying a service kit, I am exploring some new possibilities and would appreciate your advice.
-Jabsco toilets offer good value for money and include a twist lock to stop back flow.
-Jabsco do not have a three way valve to offer pumping flexibility
-RM69 offer a twist lock kit but it is quite expensive vs. a new loo from Jabsco
-Over time, UK made (I am told) Jabsco seems to be offering increasingly better value than RM69 from the Eurozone (Netherlands), including service kit pricing.

Fitting a Jabsco toilet is straightforward. The rest of the plumbing is not. There is no room in a P275, I believe, to fit a manual pump to empty the holding tank. I could arrange that the loo always pumps into the holding tank and then fit a compact (but expensive) electric pump to empty the holding tank. Or I could find a way, not yet clear to me, to use three-way valves so I could choose to pump,overboard or to the tank. I'd still need an electric pump to empty the holding tank. Another consideration is that the run from cockpit locker batteries to pump would be rather long requiring very heavy cable.

Any ideas or experience on how to benefit from the good value Jabsco toilet and still use my holding tank effectively? Did you find space to fit a separate manual pump for the holding tank?

Thanks for your advice - Ken

Ken Surplice
Commodore

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Hello Ken,

In the early '80s I was the product manager responsible for the design conception of the Jabsco manual toilet, and, amongst other things, continued to manage its development up to and including the Twist'n'lock feature until I retired four years ago. This required me to have a pretty thorough knowledge of competitive products, including the RM69 toilet and its unique RM 3-way valve for use with holding tanks.

Given that your installation has worked well for you up till now, I have to say that if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't even dream of trying to change it , even though I'm in a position to bore you to death about the superiority of the Jabsco product- I'd simply quickly service the RM toilet and the 3-way valve, and get on with my sailing! The cost, complexity and time involved in re-designing and replacing your existing installation simply doesn't bear thinking about.

From what you say, I get the impression that you may never have taken your toilet and valve apart and descaled them, let alone replaced any of the wearing parts - if so, then I'm not surprised that it has ceased to seal perfectly after a few years!

Scale always builds up in every toilet system and eventually prevents the valves from sealing properly, whilst the rubber components will age harden over time, and may then crack or distort. But very often, if you're up for it. very often all that is needed to restore 100% operation is to strip, descale and clean all the working parts - once cleaned, if the rubber components are still soft and flexible, and not visibly cracked or damaged, they don't even need replacing. If that doesn't appeal, or you want to be on the safe side, then buy the RM service kits for both toilet and 3-way valve, and just replace all the serviceable parts [...but you'll still need to descale and clean all the mating surfaces...].


Geoff Sheddick
Parker 27/146 "Stroller'

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Geoff, talk about a small world. Thank you for your expert advice and lucky me to be on the receiving end of it. If you, with your experience, would keep it simple, then I will follow suit. I have stripped the whole lot down before. After child number one arrived, dealing with loos became very matter of fact [:)]. I think the appeal of twist and lock overcame me but will now try a simple clean and service and save my temptation for change for another year. Many thanks , Ken

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Hi Ken and Geoff
I couldn't resist joining in your Toilet Chat.
A couple of years ago I bought the RM69 twist and lock kit for our 31 as it was described as an upgrade, it wasn't, it is the whole new toilet excepting the bowl and seat assembly. All the old parts needed to be replaced as the pump unit does not fit the non twist and lock base unit and to make matters worse the new base unit does not use the same mounting hole centres as the old type so we needed to create access to the underside of the shelf on to which the toilet was mounted in order to bolt the new base unit down.
In contrast we fitted a new "Twist and Lock" pump to upgrade a std Jabsco in Blue Moon and that was a straight swop although the cost was more than halfway to buying a totaly new toilet assembly.

Jan
Blue Moon 325/32

Ken,

My 275 had a holding tank under the front of the focsle berth, but when I bought the boat it was not plumbed in. It has a Jabsco loo. During the first season a crack appeared at the bottom of the Jabsco pump - the quick fix was to buy a complete new Jabsco loo, but just to swap the pump - so I now have a twist-n-lock pump fitted, and a spare bowl in the loft [offers?].

I have been trying to work out how to plumb the holding tank in again. Using the Jabsco loo, I think I would need three 3-way valves [to include a shore connection fitting in the anchor well]. I had considered fitting a manual or electric discharge pump forward of the tank. There is space to fit a manual pump forward of the tank, but it would need some extensive ply support structure, and would be difficult to use.

In some of the other boaty fora, where there are threads about all things related to sewage, the three 3-way valve configuration was described as the "Chernobyl" configuration! ie plenty of scope for doing the wrong thing with nasty consequences.

It sounds as though things would be much easier with the RM69 system - I'll have to have another look at that. It could be that the boat originally had an RM69.

Do you have a shore pump-out connection at present?

Regards

Dick
Dark Star P275 No 36

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Thanks all. Dick, we do have a pump out connection. There is a socket in the floor of the anchor locker. Just remove the plug, connect to the evacuation pump and start. I presume the pipe leads to the bottom of our holding tank.

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Ken,

Thanks for the info. Having had a closer look at the RM69 information, and the information on the RM valve, I think that Dark Star must originally have had an RM loo installed, though it did not have a shore pump-out connection - just a vent [also to the anchor well].

I think that if I want to reinstate the holding tank, it may be simpler to spend the money and fit an RM loo rather than sort out all the valve and pump issues to use the existing Jabsco.

Do you know what size your holding tank is? The RM valve information suggests that the valve with the pump out option should not be used with tanks above 40 litres - I don't understand why that should be the case.

I would be interested in your experience of pumping out the tank using the RM loo. From the current information it seems that a stopper has to be inserted in the bowl when doing this. Does this work ok?

Regards

Dick
Dark Star P275 No 36

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Hello everyone,

I am in a position to offer some factual information to underpin your individual thinking and decision making:

The RM69 was essentially a 1970's copy of the Brydon Boy manual toilet [which was made in Canada], so much so that RM claimed that their service kit fitted the Brydon Boy. Brydon was bought by ITT in 1968 and became part of the Jabsco/Par/Ray-Line/Brydon family of marine leisure products. In the early 1980's, the Brydon Boy was superceded by the Par/Brydon 29090-xxxx, designed and developed in England, which has been subsequently rebranded and continuously developed into the currently internationally marketed Jabsco Twist'n'Lock™.[|)]

RM69 was, and has remained, a low cost option for smaller OEM boatbuilders less concerned with matching the specifications of market leading boatbuilders.

There is no interchangeability of parts between the RM69 and any Par/Brydon/Jabsco 29090-xxxx product.[V]

And nor, as Jan has discovered the hard way, is there any useful interchangeability of parts between the RM Sealock and the RM69 toilets, nor with any variant of the Jabsco 29090-xxxx manual toilet series.[:(!]

The RM 3-way valve is a unique product and to the best of my knowledge there is no substitute or equivalent available in the international marine marketplace.

The RM 3-way valve cannot be readily fitted to the Par/Brydon/Jabsco 29090-xxxx because of the different angle on the pump discharge flange.[V]

It is therefore unique in offering a simple solution to those with existing [RM69] overboard discharge toilets who wish to retain that facility when at sea at the same time as installing a small holding tank for use in the marina or other restricted discharge waters. Indeed, I suspect that it was the introduction of restricted discharge regulations affecting existing thousands of installations in the Dutch inland water motor cruiser marketplace that led to its original development in association with the RM holding tank that wraps around the RM69 toilet.

However, today the most popular holding tank configuration for modern, marina moored, but offshore sailing yachts, with no underfloor space for holding tanks, has become the under-side-deck mounted holding tank with gravity discharge to sea when outside restricted discharge limits.

This type of installation eliminates the need for diverter valves and complex pipework configurations, because the discharge seacock is simply kept closed in restricted discharge waters, and opened - and left open - when outside restricted discharge waters; plus shore based pump-out is an easily configured optional extra.[^]

However the tank is often relatively small for the crew size, and can then all too easily become full as a result of excessive use or over-enthuisiastic pumping.... If the vent then becomes blocked for any reason, the tank can all too easily become over-pressurised... This will result in the comparatively soft valve in the discharge elbow of the manual toilet inverting, thus allowing the contents of the discharge pipe to flow back towards the simple flap valve at the base of the toilet pump...[ie clean water flooding into bowl = seawater from inlet pipework , whilst dirty water = waste from discharge pipe or holding tank...].

It was to counter this specific problem that the Jabsco Twist'N'Lock™ was designed and developed.

With any holding tank, a good installation will have a vent pipe of the same size as the inlet pipework, ie 38mm id. Then it is - a] highly unlikely to ever become totally blocked, and even more crucially if you have a a shore pump-out connection - b] you will ensure that your plastic tank is never imploded by a high capacity shore pump extracting at a faster rate than air can enter through a small diameter vent pipe!!!

And finally, I suspect that the RM recommendation of a maximum holding tank capacity of 40 litres [which is pretty small for a holding tank] relates to the back pressure [= weight of water] that the valves in the RM 3-way valve can withstand... ie bigger tanks, or smaller tanks mounted above rather than beside the valve, will - when full - exert a higher back pressure than the valves are designed to withstand - and, hey presto - contents of holding tank will re-appear in the toilet! [:D]

Me? I'm just sticking with the less than ideal but perfectly adequate Lavac toilet that came with my boat, and keeping well clear of holding tanks...[:)]




Geoff Sheddick
Parker 27/146 "Stroller'

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Geoff,

Thanks for the extensive write-up! It's good to appreciate the risks. I agree that the most reliable solution is not having a holding tank!

As far as I know, on the 285 Parker used an under-deck holding tank of the type you describe, though I think it was actually mounted on the forward heads bulkhead.
With the easier access to the underside of the side deck on the 27, Chris Nichols has made and fitted an under-deck holding tank on Artemis.

The 275 doesn't have such easy access to the underside of the side deck to install an under-deck tank. So I've been looking for ways to configure a system using the 60 litre tank that was in place under the forward berth. With the Jabsco it needs lots of valves, a pump, and more piping than easily fits. With the RM69 [which I suspect was originally fitted], one is left with all the problems you describe.

In the 275, the 60l tank would have the same head relative to the loo as the 40l tank, so that would not be an issue.



Dick
Dark Star P275 No 36

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PART 2 - REPLACING THE RM69 AND RECONNECTING THE HOLDING TANK

I'm back! The story to-date: originally RM69 loo + holding tank in P275. RM69 old, service kit expensive. Replaced RM69 with Jabsco(illogical revenge) and blanked off holding tank.

What's new
Graham Ebb installed a holding tank on his new P285 and to empty the holding tank fitted a Whale Mk5 manual sanitation pump inside the hanging locker space in the loo. A nice flap covers where the pumpout handle is inserted and removed. My original question in this thread was "where can I fit a pump?". Before sharing my experience in copying Graham's wizardry I will mention that Sunflower has, I am told, a holding tank in the same wet locker space. When the out seacock is open, the waste goes from loo to tank and then straight out again into the sea. When the sea cock is closed, the waste stays in the tank. When the sea cock is next opened, the tank drains under gravity. Beautifully simple.

Learnings from fitting a pump to empty a holding tank

Shopping list. You will need:

• lots of money
• Whale Mk5 sanitation pump, under deck version BP0535
• plastic deck plate kit DP9906
• a three way valve
• 1.5 inch diameter sanitation pipe
• a heat gun
• maybe some right angle elbows and two jubilee clips per junction

Advice 1: the deck plate kit changed recently from a DP9905 to a 9906. When fitting the plate kit to the pump, notice that two of the four bolt attachment holes are obscured by the pump. Drill out the holes until the bolt can go in and out easily. If you don't, the bolt goes in fairly easily, cutting a thread as it goes, starts to bend and then refuses to come out. Sawing it in half and starting again is not fun.

Advice 2: even with a heat gun, classic white sanitation pipe is the devil's work and I will not use it again. Instead go to ASAP Supplies or Bainbridge and buy, at huge but worthwhile expense, flexible butyl rubber waste pipe

Advice 3: Eureka moment. With the original setup, one sanitation pipe went from anchor locker to holding tank, for pump out with a vacuum pump in certain ports. A second went from loo to holding tank. A third smaller pipe is the air vent pipe from tank to outside.

You cannot pump from loo through the Whale pump so we arranged the following:
- loo pumps directly into holding tank. No valves. Simple.
- cut the pipe from anchor locker to tank where it enters the tank
- fit a one piece three way valve there. Reconnect the anchor locker to tank. Connect the third exit to the Whale pump then up the anti syphon loop then to the out sea cock.

In other words, use the existing loo to tank pipe as a dedicated pipe to fill the tank. Split the line that goes from tank to anchor locker so it becomes a dedicated line to empty the tank.

The good news is that the three way valve really simplifies things. The bad news is that fitting the white sanitation pipe, which is inflexible to the extreme, is a nightmare. Finally, trying to mate the Whale to the bolts through the bulkhead wall when it is necessarily already attached to some sanitation pipe is very frustrating. After many tries, I used an extra long bolt through the bulkhead to line up one nut, then worked on the other three bolts, then returned and replaced the long bolt with a standard length bolt.


Advice 4: when we tried pumping out the tank, it started to collapse. The air vent skin fitting had blocked over the years. Getting it off was not easy. I could not hold the outside skin fitting while trying to undo the final turns of the backing nut. I first drilled a hole in the outside skin fitting so I could put a screw driver through it to act as a tommy bar. I still could not hold it so carefully cut it off outside with a saw. The new skin fitting (just an open hole, not a mesh like before) was too large to fit the fibrglass hull hole so you'll also need a file to enlarge the hole. Advice on boaty forums suggests that lack of ventilation means the tank gets extra stinky. Now the air is free to vent I am hoping for sweeter smells.

Advice 5: having fitted everything, including some right angle fittings, sadly, to get around some bends, we tried first the loo pump then the Whale pump. Alas many joints leaked, which was disappointing when using new pipe, and air gun and double jubilee clips throughout. A wipe of Fernox LS (leak stop) seemed to help. I'm not sure whether to do the rest with silicone sealant. I used Fernox because it's cheap and effective.

Will it all settle down and stop leaking? We'll see. If I started again, I would a) use butyl rubber sanitation pipe b) use sealant on all junctions. Once it is leak free, the advantage of this setup is that there are no valves to fiddle with except for a harbour-side pump out. Normally the loo always pumps to the tank and the Whale always pumps from tank to sea.

Ken

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Ken,

Sounds like a major job successfully completed, well done!

While an excessive interest in sewage might be regarded as questionable in some circles, is there any chance you could post a few pics?



Dick
Dark Star P275 No 36

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Dick, I'll be down at the weekend to take some photos. Meanwhile I already have some I took of Betty Blue. It was seeing the pump installed on Betty Blue that prompted me to finish the job. Back in a while, Ken

Ken Surplice

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Hi all,

As you have mentioned, wrestling with the 38mm dia. pipe is not easy. It is not very flexible at close quarters, coupled with the limited space, I decided not to include a pipe to pump straight out to sea.
It is not really necessary because if you are in an area where you can pump straight from the toilet, you can pump out your tank. It also means that the diverter valve can be a two-way and not three-way, and it can be fitted in a more convenient place out of site.

One point I would like to make clear is the size of the vent pipe on Betty Blue. I have used a 19mm dia. vent to make my installation easier. However, the tank I fitted was a standard 40 litre Dometic tank from Force 4 and it comes with all the connections needed including a vacuum relief valve to prevent implosion when using shore side pump out systems. The only extra fitting was a very simple float switch that puts on a red warning light when three quarters full.

I could have fitted a 60 litre tank, purpose made from Tek-tanks, but at a much increased cost. I think this is about the biggest I could have fitted into the fore-peak without cutting fibreglass. As we are berthed at Chichester Marina with good shore facilities, we decided that our needs would be satisfied if we could avoid the middle of the night trip to the shore facilities, so the 40 litre tank would be sufficient.

So far we have found the system to work as expected and we are very happy with it.

The tank came with some fitting grease for the connections which I used on all the pipe work and have had no leaks.

I replaced our old RM69 because it needed a service kit and had a broken seat hinge. To replace both of these was about the same cost as a new Jabsco. I bought the Jabsco Compact Twist & Lock, as the standard Jabsco base overhangs the plinth in the heads.

Graham Ebb
285/61 Betty Blue