Strongarm electric keel winch failure

John Williams
Member Topic Starter

2007-07-18T08:44:56Z

My Strongarm SA5000 electric keel winch broke in a way that left the keel stuck down. What appears to have happened is over time the shaft through the middle of the cable drum had become seized to the drum itself and has been rotating in a way it’s not designed to do. This has caused slots to wear in the metal frame of the winch and eventually it’s allowed the drum teeth to become disengaged from the motor gears. Lot’s of grinding sounds came from the winch and jerking as the teeth slipped as the keel went down. This happened when we were on holiday in France recently so it was annoying but not much of a problem as we were in deep water most of the time. However we came back via Ramsgate to Burnham across the Thames estuary at around low water. This is something we often do so we catch the flood up the Crouch. Parkers with their keels lifted slip nicely over the various sand banks encountered but not this time we had to go the long way round like other yachts. Didn’t realise it was so far. I managed to order a new Strongarm winch from a trailer company while we were still on holiday so it was waiting for us when we got home. Fitted it Saturday along with a new cable and it’s all good as new. The old cable was really badly frayed on close inspection. It didn’t look that bad when I changed the keel eye bolt the other week but clearly it was. The damage was on the short tightly wound length that remains on the drum after the keel is down. I will check it all much more carefully in future.

John Williams

275/60 CRYSTAL

John Williams

GWENLLI

Beneteau 323

kate.hattersley
Advanced Member

2007-09-24T15:53:44Z

#2

I have replaced the wire every season so far as I use my winch a lot. New galvanised wire with a loop on the end is about £19 round here. Have you investigated using dyneema v12 or another high tec rope? In theory it should be stronger than wire and less prone to damage. I haven't anyone who has put it to the test yet. It would be much easier to handle although more expensive.any guinea pigs out there?

Kate

John Williams
Member Topic Starter

2007-09-25T12:58:25Z

#3

Hi Kate

I'm already using 8mm Dyneema. Seems to be holding up very well. It's stronger, cheaper, cleaner (no grease)and easier to fit and replace than wire.

Cheers

John Williams

275/60 CRYSTAL

John Williams

GWENLLI

Beneteau 323

Ken Surplice
Advanced Member

2008-10-14T01:04:57Z

#4

Another late reply as I lost my password for quite a while. [:)]. My winch also failed. The outer bearing surface on the main spindle became worn and elongated, causing the cogs to go out of line and a sudden drop. Not good. What really annoyed me was not so much the failure, but the total lack of interest of StrongArm to take a look at it to see what went wrong. They did suggest I could post it to them at my expense. Anyway, we fitted #2, helpfully supplied by Bill Parker, but I will be looking for an alternative method if this second unit fails. -Ken

Ken

John Williams
Member Topic Starter

2008-10-17T15:20:29Z

#5

Hi Ken

That is a late reply [:)]

Sounds like the same problem I had. John Dinwiddy's boat "Liberty" has an electric winch on it's coachroof which looks to be a good solution to keel lifting.

John Williams

275/60 CRYSTAL

John Williams

GWENLLI

Beneteau 323

Tim Reeder
Advanced Member

2008-10-17T15:56:42Z

#6

Hi All

I know Mike Slade in Nosey Parker found a really cheap source of winches from China - might be worth finding out from him.

I still use the manual method plus Easy winch when tired - lees room for breakdowns!

Tim

Speedwell

kate.hattersley
Advanced Member

2008-10-19T12:07:49Z

#7

I'm going to take the plunge and fit Dyneema 8mm instead of wire this winter. Any problems yet John? And how do you tell when it is worn? I think I'll replace my wire clew outhaul as well, although it doesn't need such heavy stuff, so Marlow braided should do for that.

Kate

John Williams
Member Topic Starter

2008-10-20T08:32:16Z

#8

Hi Kate

I have had no problems with the 8mm dyneema. I visually check it the same as I did with the wire from time to time and it's still as good as new. I carry a spare 4 metre length just in case of a problem but have not needed it.

John Williams

275/60 CRYSTAL

John Williams

GWENLLI

Beneteau 323

Ken Surplice
Advanced Member

2009-04-05T23:09:06Z

#9

John,

May I offer an even later reply? My winch failed. The axle bearing wore an eliptical hole in the metal sides of the casing, the cogs went out of line and down went the keel. I was keen that StrongArm took a look at my winch to see what went wrong but they were disinterested. Very disappointing. My replacement winch is surviving but in the long term I will look for an alternative, such as John Dinwiddy's powerered coach roof winch, or a hydraulic winch if such things come with a clutch.

Regards - Ken P275/25 Vol-au-vent

Ken Surplice

Vice Commodore

Ken

kate.hattersley
Advanced Member

2009-04-07T12:38:25Z

#10

I looked for this problem when fitting out last month and realise now what you meant. The central spindle has worn an elliptical hole in the side cheeks of the winch and sometimes the drum doesn't engage the gears properly. I guess replacing the winch will be a job for the autumn now and something else to be nervous about all summer. [B)] Painting the Forth Bridge? More fun possibly.

Kate

charlesclements
Member

2009-04-15T17:16:03Z

#11

hi

i have been reading this topic with interest and feel i must replace the wire on my winch this winter [present one 3rd season/50 sails a season]

Does anyone have a detailed job description for changing the winch wire on Parker 285?

much appreciated.

regards

charles

charles clements

Spartacus 285

charles clements

Spartacus 285

John Williams
Member Topic Starter

2009-04-16T15:23:02Z

#12

Hi Charles

I don’t have a detailed job description but it's not a difficult job just awkward and a bit messy if you have greased up the wire as recommended. 6mm wire is not easy to bend as tightly as it needs to be bent which is probably why it frays at the winch end. Inspection is just a question of removing the various covers over the keel and the winch itself and you will see if you need to do anything in a hurry. You have probably read I decided to use 8mm Dyneema instead of 6mm 19X7 SS wire and it’s been on there since July 07 and apart from the outer sheath I damaged when it was first fitted it is as good as new. I carry a 4 metre length of Dyneema as a spare just in case but so far I can see no problems.

John Williams

275/60 CRYSTAL

John Williams

GWENLLI

Beneteau 323

kate.hattersley
Advanced Member

2009-04-20T08:41:02Z

#13

quote:
Originally posted by charlesclements

hi
Does anyone have a detailed job description for changing the winch wire on Parker 285?
much appreciated.

Hi Charles.

In a nutshell:

Best done with boat ashore and keel raised. If on cradle chocked from below, if dried out on hard ground no need.

ASIDE: If your wire fails and you have do do this job afloat you can use the secondary keel height indicator wire to attach a block and tackle eg mainsheet system to spinnaker D ring and pull the keel up so you can reach the eye bolt. I have done this but buckled the spinnaker D ring on the mast under the weight of the keel. Ho hum.

Put keel winch out of gear and unwind wire or engage "lower" to do the same. Unwind wire from drum and disengage from fixing on side of drum. WEAR GLOVES as worn wire will shred your hands.

Pull end through hole into keel box from outside.

Unshackle old wire from eye bolt.

Replace eye bolt IF IN ANY DOUBT AT ALL ABOUT IT!! (See other threads eg "OOPS my keel fell down" for eye bolt failure and consequences!)

Replace with new wire or Dyneema of same diameter. I have done this with a splice at the end to shackle to the eye bolt. I believe John just uses a knot. Splices are in theory stronger if done correctly.

Feed free end of well greased new wire/clean rope into forecabin through hole.

Attach to drum. (Wire twisted with difficulty in U bend round screw fitting, stopper knot in rope)

Wind up line on drum. I find doing this under direct vision helps to avoid tangles and you need to keep the tension on to reduce the chance of later tangles and slippage when under load (which can damage or knot the new line)

Take up full weight of keel on line ready for removal of chocks or refloating of boat.

Once able to do so carefully lower and raise keel to check line is untangled.

I always lift my keel with someone watching the top through the keel box lid as I have caused damage before by overtightening the wire. (I would love to fit a solenoid switch to prevent this. Anyone fitted one?)

I thinks that's it. Have I forgotten anything?

Kate

charlesclements
Member

2009-04-22T18:02:36Z

#14

Hi

thankyou Kate and John for your replies. they will certainly help.

in response to another query i had some time ago i have now made a shallow draft rudder by using a longer bolt through the main rudder.

the extended bolt has a SS tube covering it and the new 18mm ply rudder pivots around this. It is reinforced around the pivot hole by a SS plate.

It has its own downhaul and uphaul and works a treat.

regards

charles

charles clements

Spartacus 285

charles clements

Spartacus 285

John Williams
Member Topic Starter

2009-04-23T09:20:01Z

#15

Hi Charles

Do you have any pics of your shallow draft rudder? It sounds good.

This should probably be a new topic ...... [:)]

John Williams

275/60 CRYSTAL

John Williams

GWENLLI

Beneteau 323

Geoff Harwood
Advanced Member

2009-04-23T14:35:30Z

#16

Following the rudder branch of this thread, there's another on the 21 forum "Stub Rudder for Drying Out" which describes an arrangement that would work for all the Seal/Parker transom rudders.

Geoff P21/30 Cygnus

kate.hattersley
Advanced Member

2009-04-30T07:40:58Z

#17

Well I can report that accepting rope from one's brother in law bought on ebay is a BAD IDEA!! I fitted what I believed to be Dyneema 8mm and after only a month it snapped coming off the mooring and the keel plummetted into a mud bank gently. Using the technique outlined above it took thirty minutes to attach the mainsheet block and tackle to the indicator line and haul up the keel again and knot the line together so I could continue. (Another advantage over wire!)

Investigations revealed special very strong ebay rope was in fact Kevlar which while strong does not go round corners under load. A nice man in Largs marina who gives lectures on rope explained that it was best to have rope that breaks at a strain less than thaat of the electric winch as it is cheaper to replace the rope than the winch! I have now some kosher English Braided dyneema 8mm which I will fit before sailing on Saturday. Ho hum anything else you would like tested to destruction in Topsham? [:o)]

Kate

John Williams
Member Topic Starter

2009-05-01T13:26:16Z

#18

Oh dear Kate .....that wasn't good. Hopefully you will be ok now.

John Williams

275/60 CRYSTAL

John Williams

GWENLLI

Beneteau 323

kate.hattersley
Advanced Member

2009-05-03T19:22:39Z

#19

Thank you John but I confidently expect to discover new ways to break my boat and embarrass myself in future [:I]

Kate

kate.hattersley
Advanced Member

2009-05-12T08:15:30Z

#20

Well it took just 9 days for the prediction to come true. Last night the winch gave up the ghost and the keel got stuck down on a mud bank and I had to be towed off by the Cruiser Fleet captain. While struggling to hoist the keel (see above post for method involving block and tackle) I had the strongest feeling that I wanted my Dad to come and save me. Then I remembered my Dad is lovely but useless at all that sort of thing so I just knuckled down and got on with fixing it. Ho hum! [:(]

Kate