I have trouble with lee helm on my 28, especially as the wind gets a bit stronger. I have tried trimming sails, moving the mast aft and raking it as the book suggests, but never manage to eradicate the lee helm completely. Lee helm is annoying and hard work on the tiller. It can be dangerous, because the boat pays off down wind instead of luffing up if you lose control. It seemed to me that reefing the sails (as you do in strong winds!) was making matters worse, since the C of E was moving forwards when I needed it to move aft. It occurred to me that it would be an improvement to keep setting the genoa and No 1 jib on the stemhead forestay, but when the No 2 was needed (say, about force 6) it should be set on an inner forestay thus tending to keep the C of E aft and incidentally, retaining a more efficient slot with the mainsail. Indeed, it may be that the rig would be more efficient altogether, if you reefed down to the No 2 jib without reefing the mainsail.

So, last season, I tried rigging up an inner forestay. The stay itself worked OK, I rigged it from a strong point I fitted about 1 metre below the masthead to an eye plate in the after part of the anchor well. So that it wouldn't intrude on normal sloop rig, particularly when close tacking up narrow creeks - something I do a lot - I made it just long enough so that it would stow onto the existing babystay eyeplate when not wanted. I shackled a piece of chain onto the new eyeplate in the well that was just long enough to make up the difference in length between the two stay positions. The bottle screw stays with the inner forestay so that it can be tightened either in stowed or working positions with a minimum of effort. I am looking out for a pelican hook or some other quick release device to make setting up the stay easier, but for the moment, I use a standard clevis pin with an 'R' pin to secure it instead of a split pin.

I also got a secondhand sail roughly equivalent to a number two headsail (about 9 square metres) that my calculations showed would fit in the area. I siezed some sheet blocks to the coach roof handrails and waited for a force 6.

Well. The rig balanced a lot better than it did before. I managed well enough in force 6 with 3 rolls in the main and the new headsail (staysail?) set on the inner forestay whereas I would have kept the working jib and put 6 rolls in the main before. The boat seemed to have plenty of go and had a neutral helm. Three things spoilt the party, though. I kept getting riding turns on the winches because the sheet leads were too high. The winches were not powerful enough. I couldn't sheet the new sail in as hard as I would have liked because the shrouds got in the way.

What to do? The basic idea seems to be sound - and possibly a lot of fun, thinking about setting both headsails together to give a true cutter rig. Sorting out better sheeting positions and stronger winches is easy enough, but moving the main shrouds?

One thought comes to mind which I could try out readily enough this season. I could reduce the length of the foot of the staysail, move the sheeting positions forward and sheet inside the main shrouds. Reducing the sail area would also ease the load on my Barton 2 speeds as well. I'd be very grateful for any comments, though, before I start cutting up my sail!

Cheers! Neil

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Hello Neil
It is very interesting you have problems with lee helm, it is the exact oposite to what I used to suffer on Aztec. When the wind gotup I found I was having to pull the tiller up into my chest and things were very difficult to control.
Reefing the main was always a pain with the boom roller reefing and when I had a few reefs in you had to muck about fitting a claw for the kicking strap. The boom was always very low and whilst reefed was always getting in the way.
Sorry I am rambling.
Anyway what I wanted to check with you was, what type of keel do you have, is it a lifting one like Aztec or fixed.
Getting back to my problem, I fitted slab reefing with all the lines bought back to the cockpit to clutches and a couple of winches fitted on the coach roof under the spray hood. I can now reef the main whenever I want to even whilst still sailing with out having to start the engine and heading into the wind.

Mike Edwards
Seal 28 "Aztec"

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Thanks for your comments, Mike. I have the Mk 1 (heavy)lifting keel. In my innermost thoughts, I occasionally think that my mainsail is very old and blown out and if I replaced it I would improve the balance, but the 700 odd GBP is not available at the moment. When I look up the mast, though, the sail still seems to present a reasonable aerofoil shape, even though there are some bulges and creases around the battens. It was cut very flat when new to suit the roller reefing. I can't help feeling that there must be a simple reason why my boat balances differently to the others - they all came out of the same mold, after all.

I get very heavy weather helm on occasion, but I consider that I'm overdriving the boat if that happens and spill wind out of the main or pull down a reef to stop it. In gusty conditions, Andiamo can be a real pig, in the lulls she has lee helm which abruptly changes to heavy weather helm when it pipes up. That is hard work for the helmsman!

I sleeved the outboard half of the boom with a piece of plastic drain-pipe to stop the boom droop, but you're right, rigging the claw is a drag. If its not rough, I have managed to keep the boat sailing to weather under headsail and autohelm while reefing the main. I have not had much luck in getting her to heave-to reliably - perhaps another symptom of lee-helm?

The mk 2 lift keel design has a deeper fixed ballast keel and a lighter lift keel. I was wondering if the CLR of this arrangement was a bit further forward?

Still, we're out on the mooring now, with the rigging set up. First sail of the season last Sunday!

Cheers! Neil (Andiamo of Exe)

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Neil
That's a real mystery, It is important to have a well cut sail as too much belly will cause the main to be overpowered and could unbalance the boat. It sounds like you need to get the centre of effort of the main farther forward.
Try hauling out the clew, and tightening the luff. Also at the same time try relaxing the leach a little by raising the boom with the kicker.
Apart from that, I don't know what to suggest. If it helps I posted a drawing I made of Aztec's rig onto the 2nd page of this forum. Scroll down to the bottom of the topic "Mk 1 or Mk 2"

http://www.parkerseal.org.uk/bbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=128 


You can see more photos & drawings I have done at this address. If you hover the mouse over the picture a symbol will appear in the bottom right corner of the picture, if you click on this it will enlarge the image to full size.
http://www.swatchway.pwp.blueyo...k/aztec-photos/aztec.htm 


Mike Edwards
Seal 28 "Aztec"

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Neil,
my Mk 1 acts in the same way as Mike described. When rigging I always try to get the mast bended afterwards - like you do - as much as possible (or what I think could be possible) to get the sails pressure point more behind the mast. In that case of course it is necessary to avoid too much belly in the main, which would have the opposite effect. My BEILKEN main sail seems to be cut perfectly for this, but I never use the roller reefing, it has got three conventional reefings, No. 1 and 2 to be handled from the cockpit.
I would suppose that sheeting the head sail too tight or inside the shrouds would be even worse for the main, the space between fore and main sail could be too narrow so that the main could not produce the power that you need to avoid lee helm.
I agree to Mike that the most important point should be a good working main sail and I think this cannot really be achieved by using the roller reef. I remember my single handed trip in October 2006 with 5-6 Bft. and full main and genoa; ok, the water came to the toe-rail and at last my arm felt like 2 meters, but I never had problems with lee helm.
By the way: Have you ever paid attention to the horizontal trim? Do you really use the complete water line or does the bow raise too much out of the water?
Good luck!

Gerold

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Well, I experimented a bit more last weekend with the inner staysail. I found that the secret was to set it a little lower on the stay. I can sheet it outside the forward lower shroud and inside the main and after lower shrouds. I can flatten it out quite nicely, now, and still pay out sheet when I want to bear away. I still get riding turns on the winch, but a couple of fairleads should sort that out. I also tried unrolling the working jib and sailing as a cutter - that was going really well, except I wasn't paying attention to where I was going and touched the bottom. Still, that's what lifting keels are for, isn't it?

There seem to be several advantages to the cutter rig for the lone sailor - it is very easy to reduce sail area in front of the mast, both for reefing purposes and for close quarters sailing. It also seems quite efficient going to weather. Its not so easy tacking, though.

The lee helm is still there. I did notice, though, that I don't seem to have as much mast rake as I should. I bought new fore and back stays over the winter, and I think the rigger has made them a little short. The back stay bottle screw is fully extended. I will try an extra toggle under the furling drum and see if that helps.

Cheers! Neil

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Well - lack of mast rake appears to be inducing the lee helm. I fitted a second toggle under the drum of the jib furler and took up on the backstay bottle screw. Andiamo now has only the slightest hint of lee helm in very light winds. As soon as it gets up to 10 knots, a gentle tug of weather helm appears. This is much more comfortable for the helmsman! The only trouble is that the backstay bottle screw is screwed fully in - and there is not quite enough tension in the stay. I didn't manage to get out sailing last weekend which was a shame because the force 6 we had would have been a good opportunity to try the inner staysail with the new sheet leads I have fitted to stop the riding turns on the winches.

Cheers for now! Neil

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