Nosey's keel won't lower! I raised it to put in the retaining pin, but it wouldn't lower back onto the pin. I haven't tested the electrics yet - the solenoid to the valve worked last week - but the manual method doesn't work. According to the manual, I simply unscrew the valve on the manual pump box. It seems ambiguous as to where the lever has to be for lowering, but I assumed towards the hull, but nothing happens when the lever is moved towards the keel either.

I'm assuming the keel may have jammed slightly off-centre on the rollers. Should I treat this problem as a ram anode replacement and go through those steps?

Has anyone else met, and solved, this problem?

Nosey is currently out of the water, having been lifted out today for a week for me to carry out some jobs - this one wasn't on the list! I was expertly towed round by Richardsons workboat, with some steerage assistance from Nosey to counteract the tendency to crab. We use the wind to berth sideways on at about 2kn.
When the boat was hanging from the boat hoist straps the keel felt absolutely solid, with no lateral or traverse movement at all.
Nosey is currently chocked in four places to leave the keel free to move if it can.

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On the 325/335 arrangements I have seen, the valve on the manual pump block is a needle valve that when opened allows fluid to return to the reservoir. So if no fluid is returning, something else must be holding the keel up. Is there any other valve that might isolate the manual pump from the circuit?

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On Blue Moon, the keel lowers very slowly when unsupported, showing that the non return valve is leaking slightly but that is what I would expect. You could try cracking the joint in the hydraulic pipe to the cylinder but first make sure the keel is supported otherwise it just might drop and spray oil everywhere.Then try a slow lower again, support it with a car jack or something similar where you can control the rate of descent. Of course if the problem is mechanical and something is jammed once there is air in the hydraulic system if the keel comes free it will drop.
A lot of weight there .
Another thought if you remove the cover over the keelbox you should be able to tell if the weight of the keel is on the hydraulic cylinder, by wiggling the top mounting. Keep fingers out of the way, something is going to drop eventually.

Jan
325/32
Blue Moon

Thanks to Jan and Dick for suggestions, all good. As someone else said, perhaps the keel mechanism is the P325 Achilles heel - out of sight, out of mind ...
Well I cracked open the hose - no movement, which is not surprising, as it would be a coincidence of both solenoid and manual valve had jammed. The rollers etc look ok, so the assumption is the ram has jammed in the cylinder. There is some corrosion to the jacket of the cylinder, which may be significant. The keel is jammed fully up, with the top of the keel wing resting against the hull "lobes". All four split pins have string attached.

I have a car bottle jack under the keel to prevent unexpected movement.

The top of the ram appears to be holding both the pins, upper and lower, quite firmly.

Since close quarters manoeuvring is random with the keel fully up, I need to revert to fixed fin keel configuration.

I propose to carefully remove the top pins - more accessible - and drift out the top pin, releasing the structure holding the ram. The keel will then be lowered some 3 feet. I will replace the keel box cover, and make off the plate onto the retaining pin which is used when the keel is brought up and left for any length of time. Since the edges are not profiled I'll ensure adequate padding. Sea motion shouldn't provide any shock loads, and I shall watch depth under keel very carefully!

I can now sail or motor to have the boat slipped again and ram attended to (probably replaced) at a time convenient to me.

Any comments on the feasibility of this plan?

I'm aware that the weight of the keel in air is greater than when in water ...

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Hi John,

Sent you a email.

"Hi John,

I agree with the post which says that you keel should drop with gravity. Therefore, two causes are possible? First, there is something physical (a stone or something?) preventing this or second, it your hydraulic ram at fault? I think its most likely the ram pump.

If this this so, then my guess would be that hydraulic fluid is not returning free flow from the pump reservoir into the ram while the keel is going down? It could be a faulty / sticky valve? Are you sure that the manual tap is set correctly? (easy one to check?) Another idea is that you may have accumulated fluid behind the piston?

http://www.1degreewestmarine.co.uk/  - 1 Degree West at Southsea Marina. You can contact Scott Doble for advise. However, he generally supports me on ram maintenance not pump maintenance. But he is a useful helpful guy and has lots big power boat hydraulic knowledge. The Boatshed, Southsea Marina, Hampshire PO4 9RJ.
Telephone 02392 838 335 or 07764 346 301 Email scott@1degreewestmarine.co.uk

Hope this is a help?

Best Regards,

Stuart"

Pegasus 325/37

Richard Watson replaced or had the ram serviced on Magus over the past winter so he may be able to help ?

Hello John
If you get the keel to lower the boat will perform perfectly OK as a fin keeler. Pascal Claeyssens sailed Maruli from Germany to the Channel Isles in this state before he replaced the cylinder. When you get the cylinder out it will look awful, rust everywhere, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is dead (Doesn't mean it is OK either) . When I got Blue Moon's cylinder clean (Angle grinder) the outer diameter of the tube was only very fractionally down on the original diameter 100um perhaps. However I would very much like to find a stainless version of that cylinder , anyone know of one ? far too easy to ignore hidden in the box.
Have you got her out yet ?

Jan

325/32
Blue Moon

Hi John and all the others joining in.
Does anyone have either the dimensions or a part # for the hydraulic cylinder ?
I believe Pascal has them but have not been able to contact him .
I would like to get a quote for stainless part , I have to get mine out again next year and don't want to put that rust old thing back.
Tony Castro's system on the 31's looks a little less prone to rust.

Jan

325/32
Blue Moon

Hi John, Jan and all the others;
It's very easy to sail with the jammed lifting keel when this one is in the low position. When I found Maruli in Germany, the ram was out off work, and at each low tide, the boat was in the mud, and the keel up and at each high tide, the keel was down. I have believed that could be some ram lip seal. And after my return in North Brittany, when I taken off the ram, this one didn't look so rusty outside because the German owner had put some wrapping strips with water resistant grease, but without a ram anode . But when I came in the ram factory (which is in my little town ,Paimpol), the long stainless steel axis ( inside the ram) was corroded by electrolysis. They made a new one by copy ( all the ram, not stainless steel outside part and stainless steel inside part). So they have the exact measurements. It was very difficult to put a new anode on the new ram. I needed to grind down one part of the anode. Two years later, last winter I take off again the ram to change again the ram anode, and I was very surprised because the bottom screwed part (which receives the bottom nut) was bent. The ram factory made a new one ( only the terminal part) . I think it was because the boat and the keel was moved with the bottom nut out in the shipyard. This year I bought the original ram anode in England but I had to grind again the inside anode part for about 1 cm to put again the ram correctly. At this time a very kind PSSA member sent to me all ram measurements. I can send them by mail if you give me your mail address.
So when you are changing the ram don't move the ram length and don't move the boat and the keel, because that will be very difficult to have the good ram length.
Now I have a new rudder made by Milanes. Very good work and I have found where you can have all Parker yacht decals : Hutsons
Best regards
Pascal Claeyssens
Maruli P325/27

Sorry, I have forget to give my email address: claeyssens@wanadoo.fr

Hello again, and thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Since then there’s been some wet and windy weather and some mainland commitments for me, so here’s a catch-up
The boat is chocked up under the bulkheads, so the keel is free to move.

I’ve detached the top hose and still no movement of the keel. I’ve jiggled it and there is lateral movement (side to side) but I couldn’t get fore and aft movement, although I did’t force it. But definitely no vertical movement. Picture attached.
As far as I can see, in decreasing order of probability, the lack of movement can only be due to:
1) The piston has jammed on the lid of the piston.
2) The keel is jammed in the keel box.
3) There is a blockage in the hydraulic pipe below the top joint which is preventing the piston from lowering.

Because the ram is fully closed up, and the keel tight against the hull, the retaining pins are tight against the hangers. I've removed the split pins (retained by light line, and secured the pin too) but as yet have been unable to drift it out.
I propose to destroy the cap of the cylinder(drill, angle grinder, what have you!) to try and see what, if anything, is holding the piston in place. It would seem it’s not a bad idea to replace the cap, if not the whole cylinder anyway. I’m mindful that fragments of the cap may fall into the keel so I’ll construct a skirt around it to catch the pieces. I may also disconnect the keel depth sensor, noting the string positions, which still works on Nosey.

Any thoughts on the merits of this course of action?

Best Regards,

John

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Hi John and All
I find it difficult to believe that the keel is jammed other than by the ram and also would be surprise if the hydraulic are blocked so effectively that there is no leakage at all. I think I would be tempted to :
Disconnect the oil return hose from the top of the ram.
Jack up the keel very firmly
Then remove the fore and aft pin from the top of the ram and support structure, a two jaw puller with hexagon drive might do this, I hate hammering, if not get someone to hold a very heavy hammer on the other side of the support to give it inertia while you drive the pin out.
Once the pin is out the the mystery of which is jammed, ram or keel will be solved . Hopefully not the keel, then you can lower it carefully and remove the ram bolt and hoist the offending ram out of the box . Make sure the sail and cover are off or the boom swung well over to avoid contact with the filthy ram.
Does anyone know the sort of money we are looking at to replace the ram ? I dream of getting a stainless on made.
Best of luck John

Jan
325/32
Blue Moon

Thanks Jan,

I too dislike using a persuading stick. I'll try and find a puller. The mainsail is off the boat, and I've removed the mainsheet so that it's easier to swing the boom right out of the way and back again when I've finished. I have tried jacking the keel, but the ram has pulled it up as far as it will go against the hull.

Regards,

John

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Hello John
One is tempted to think that if the keel structure were jammed and hence the pressure off the ram , the securing pins at the top would be only be taking the weight of the ram, about 30-40kg cf 1250kg for the whole assembly. Under these circumstances the pins should be fairly easily moved. If on the other hand the ram was jamming due to rust , and other rubbish, then the pins would stay tight as they would be taking the whole weight of the keel plus any elastic tension created by the ram pulling everything tight. The boat is going to emit a great sigh of relief when that pin is pressed out. Where is she at the moment ?

Jan
325/32
Blue Moon

Hello Jan,

Nosey is ashore at Island Harbour on the Isle of Wight (where she's berthed), chocked up under the bulkheads and with other stabilising chocks under bow and stern. The keel is free to move (should it want to!), and I've had a jack underneath to ensure the keel is held firmly against the hull, which should have released the load on the hydraulics and taken the load of the ram off the hangers, as you said. The plan would be, once the upper end of the ram is released, and the keel is free to move, to have the boat lifted on slings so that I can remove the bottom end of the ram, and hoist it clear of the keel casing to work on.

Regards,

John

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Hi John
Would have happily held a spanner or two for you in order to solve the mystery. Unfortunately a little bit far from Milford Haven.
Good luck and let's hope it is the ram as I suspect, easiest replacement and no damage to the boat.

Jan

325/32
Blue Moon

Success! Well, almost there.

The upper pin is finally out, I had drifted the pin out of the aft hole in the hanger, but then the ram pulled the pin down, and trapped it between the ram head and the forward hole in the hanger. A five second burst with an air hammer popped it out.

Nosey will be lifted Thursday and I hope to extract the lower ram bolt then. I’ve got a couple of requests for quotes for new rams out to mainland firms, plus a local company lined up.
Thanks to all of you for your help, advice and support. I had moved from brute strength and ignorance to brute strength and informed knowledge. Thanks to Stuart for his advice over a pint or so, Jan for encouragement, Mark (MyMo) for his suggestion to jack the keel in such a way as to articulate the hanger to ease the angle on the pin, and another lift keel (Ovni) owner, Jim, for the loan of the compressor and air gun. I'll keep you updated.

One final question - I'm told the lower ram bolt is 20 inches from the bottom of the keel structure - is that from the bottom of the wing, or the top of the wing?

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Hello John
Glad it has turned out to be the ram , so there should be no damage to the structure of the keel box.
Will be interested to know of the prices you are quoted for the replacement ram as I expect to need one soon.

Jan
325/32
Blue Moon

John, sorry I have joined this conversation very late so you have probably solved all your problems by now but in answer to your last question the lower ram bolt is covered by mastic (originally car body filler but I now use silicone sealer which is much easier to dig out again). It should be reasonably easy to locate this, it fills a hole about 2" across and you will need to dig it out from both sides of the keel in order to get at the bolt. I don't have the exact measurements to locate it and Tilikum is in the water now but around 20" from the keel sounds about right.
Hope you are getting there now and happy to help with any further questions if I can. I have had Tilikum for 20 yrs now so pretty familiar with getting the ram in and out!
Jonathan Houston
Parker 325
Tilikum