Dear collective P325/335 I need your knowledge about the lifting keel.

My P335 Surprise is located in The Netherland on inland water. In spring the keel was greased with marine grease as well as can be reached from the inspection lid with a hooked brush mounted on a long tube. Lowering and lifting the keel worked fine so far. This year I have not dried out on the Waddenzee (yet), so sand or barnacles are not present.

Last weekend the keel would not lower immediately as it had the week before. I had to push the lift and lower button a few times before the keel lowered. It stuttered down more than I remember. The following days the sailed and I could partly lift and lower the keel.

When returned to my home marina I lifted the keel. It lifted with a lot of jerking/stuttering. When fully lifted the keel wouldn't lower anymore.

I removed the inspection lid, but I don't see anything special ... except for a fully lifted keel. The trick of pushing the lift and lowering buttons immediately after one another did not result in lowering the keel.

Of course I searched the PSSA 325/335 forum and the Technical reference, as I remembered John (and others) have experienced keel problems in the past. I hope the keel is not jammed in the keel case in some way.

I tried switching the lifting mechanism to manual and open the black release valve. This did not solve the problem; it did nothing. Has anyone tried this before? Should this lower the keel by bypassing the solenoid valve, or can this valve be stuck too because it is never used?

I tried to find a manual of the Fluidlink Hydraulic Powerpack, but I have been unsuccessful so far. Does anyone have more information. I know the company has merged with Hydraproducts, but I can't find any documentation on older models when searching by type numbers on the power pack.

What would be the best strategy to tackle this problem and lower the keel? Of course the cause has to be determined and solved.

Hi Dirk

It is very likely that you problem is due to the hydraulic cylinder needing to be serviced. I think it unlikely to be a problem with the hydraulic power pack.

I posted a thread here on "servicing the keel" about three years ago, after a very similar experience to yours. We serviced the entire keel system, including disconnecting the lead wing and partially lifting out the keel. Everything was fine apart from the cylinder.

What we discovered was that as the shiny bar of the ram goes down into the water, it collects material which is carried up into the seal at the end of the cylinder slowly making it too tight and jamming the ram.

The solution was to have the hydraulic cylinder serviced. This was done by a local hydraulics company, it took three or four days and cost then around 250 euro.

Good luck

Martin

P335/50

Thank you Martin!

Can you tell how you removed the ram when the keel is fully raised?

My thought was:

-remove the main sail,

-have the boat hoist onto a cradle with flexible support for the keel (I do have a 3,5 tonne hydraulic car jack)

-remove to hydraulic line and stopper both ends.

-remove the return hose

-Attach a line around the ram to the main halyard

-push the keel up and remove the fore/aft hanger pin. I previously used a two-jaw pulley puller. Hammering resulted in a nasty burr to the pin

-carefully lower the keel … or lift the boat until the bolt can be removed from the keel

-hoist the ram out

… and have it serviced

I think Dutch boatyard have no experience with Parker liftkeels, so I guess I need to be there to explain things.

Other ideas? Every advice is welcomed.

The first hurdle will be to reach the boatyard (900meter from the marina) without the keel out. I will try careful maneuvering with the rudder and bow truster.

We were lucky, the keel did not stop going up and down completely so we were able to lower the keel with the boat in the cradle and take out the lower bolt.

I don't think I can improve on your plan for getting the ram out.

If it is practical it might be worth trying once again to lower the keel with the boat out of the water first. You could even try pushing the keel from above, that might possibly be enough to help lower it. Just for information, the complete keel and ram weighs about 1200kg with 1000kg of that in the lead at the bottom.

I have found manoeuvring with the keel up almost impossible, I would probably try to arrange for the boatyard to help by towing the boat from the marina.

Martin

335/50

Hi Dirk,

You have the same symptoms as I had. I had an iron cylinder and a steel ram. The keel had jammed fully up due to crevice corrosion. Given the weight of the the keel it is extremely unlikely that it is a hydraulic problem - that was suggested at first on the forum, and I wasted time opening valves and cracking open hose joints. I took the complete ram it to a local hydraulic dealer and they made a new one. Cost around £500 at the time. Hydraulics are on everything - vans, tractors etc so they just used off the shelf parts. They had no marine expertise; it was just a case of making a replacement using the jammed ram as a pattern. I could have bought a stainless cylinder and ram for at least double the price but didn't ...

As far as the process, the keel I believe weights over 1 tonne - take care. As I remember, my process was:

1. Have the boat ashore and resting on the keel (I don't have a full cradle)

   Make sure all pins etc tools are on lanyards so they don't drop into the keel. And no I didn't drop anything but I was terrified I might!

   Remove the top hose

   Drive out the pin - I borrowed an air hammer. First touch the pin just flew out!

   Attach the main halyard to the keel hanger but don't cleat off.

   Have the boat lifted by the yard as the last job of the day (the process could take some time) until the part of the keel where the lower securing nuts are located is exposed. Since the pin and hose are removed the keel will drop (lower!) onto the ground taking the ram with it.

   Chip away any covering material both sides to expose the bolts.

   Remove the nuts and I suppose buy replacements for reassembly.

   Back on board now use the main halyard to lift out the ram. It's not too heavy, and of course as it's jammed you won't have the problem of it trying to open.

   Thoroughly clean - power wash - where the bottom eye of the ram will sit when it returns. There will be years of silt, gravel etc. This makes it easier when trying to locate the eye of the ram and passing the bolt through when reassembling the new/serviced ram.

   Get the yard to lower the boat back down onto the keel and chock off.

   Go and find a suitable hydraulic company (doesn't need to be marine) to examine/service/replace.

   Lots of advice on what to do to extend the life of your new ram on the forum.

   I thoroughly recommend Denso Tape and Paste Denso products 

   And of course replace the anode. But I think one of the forums (fora?!) suggest buying an anode that attaches to the top of the keel and is lowered over the side. Often seen on aluminium boats.

The replacement process is another forum, with hints on how to prepare the ram, stop it opening under gravity, etc.

Hope this helps Dirk, and good luck.

John

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Bad luck Dirk. I agree with Martin, I wouldn't manoeuver your boat in the marina with the keel up. At least get a tow out of the marina. I got a tow when my keel was up as it was either fully up or fully down after the hose failed!

I also had a problem with my ram seals at the start of the season and had to remove the ram and replace the seals. I couldn't lower the keel as the hydraulic pipe had a hole in it and the oil had leaked out so I had to lower the boat onto the ground, remove the pin from the coachroof when the pressure came off, then slowly lift the boat until the keel bolt was exposed.

I can't understand why your keel won't go down under gravity with the weight of the keel. I would have thought it would have overcome any resistance from jammed seals. Maybe with the boat out of the water, the keel will lower without the support of the water helping to hold up the keel.

If it doesn't, you could try the following: with the keel on the ground, disconnect the hydraulic hoses in the keel box. I think as you lift the boat the ram will then extend as the oil will be pushed out of the hose.

I would replace all the oil as it will be old. I would also replace both the hydraulic hoses and the breather pipe. I can send you some instructions on this if you like, or check the Parker newsletter that's just been sent out as I wrote an article on it all.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Mike

Hi Dirk,

Lots of people were surprised that my keel wouldn't lower under gravity. In my case it was because crevice corrosion had caused the ram to jam in the cylinder. In still water and no wind you should be able, with the bow thruster, to point the boat in the right direction! I found that altering course with the keel up just means the boat slides sideways. Any turns would be best done with the boat at a standstill. Stop, use the bow thruster and go ahead again. Point and squirt!

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Martin, John and Mike, all your advice is very appreciated. Tomorrow I will have a last try to lower the keel. If unsuccessful I will ask the boatyard to give me a tow to the yard and have it placed on the hard if the keel is still stuck. Either with John’s or Mike’s procedure I will get the ram out … eventually. I already located several hydraulic repair companies in Friesland (in the north of The Netherlands). I guess it will take some time in the holiday season.

I agree it will be best to replace the hydraulic lines at the same time, as Mike suggests.

@mike: How did you (or the yard mechanic) get these lines out and back in? I guess these hydraulic lines run through the dreaded ‘tunnel of horror’? Did you perhaps link the new lines to the old ones to pull them trough?

Hi Mike,

I would appreciate to receive your instructions on how to replace the hydraulic hoses. I guess the newsletter is not yet available.

Thanks!!