bazthomas
2021-06-20T16:30:49Z
I have No. 41 which has not been in the water for about 3 years and I have found that the keel will not drop. Tried greasing the nylon runners and where I can reach in the box, ptfe spray on the pulleys inside on the 12-1 raising system, pulling it up a bit and dropping the blade on a few inches of loose uphaul but apart from some muscle building seem to have achieved little else. Before I bite the bullet and get it craned out for a look does anyone have any ideas I might try to get it raising and lowering smoothly?
Thanks,
Barry Thomas
GeoffTurner
2021-06-27T10:49:03Z
If it hasn't been in the water for 3 years, it's not likely to be anything (mud, stones) in the case. So more likely to be the uphaul system. My earlier one is different, but make sure the keel is supported - there may be a wire strop, or dry out somewhere - then loosen the uphaul rope and see if it runs through the pulleys ok; it may have jammed somehow. Or, depending on the type of rope, if it's had tension on it for 3 years, it may have developed a permanent bend which needs straightening.

bazthomas
2021-06-27T15:52:26Z
Thanks Geoff, that's very helpful. I was beginning to come to a similar conclusion after many attempts to get the thing to work.
Having lifted and dropped it many times I eventually got the keel to the bottom of it's travel and then to get it back up again was a real test of stamina and strength.
I therefore lowered it again and this time by 'pinging' a piece of stick across the ropes which loosened the rope for a second allowing the self-weight to take it down. This is how I reached the conclusion that it is the up/down mechanism of the rope and blocks and I guess the only way out is to change the lot for new as it will never work properly again if it's kinked that badly.
I'm assuming at present I'll have to get it lifted out and chocked up as you can't do it on the trailer (unless it's tilted at what perhaps is an unsafe angle) and trying to do it using tide power is going to be iffy as you need the blocks in one particular spot to get them out and replace the gear.

If you have any more observations I'd like to hear them before I arrange to have it done in the boatyard. I don't think there's any sort of wire strop in place.

Thanks
Barry
Ken Surplice
2021-06-27T19:49:46Z

Barry, I may be mixing up my P21 and P275 experience but let me offer two comments.

1. Does your pulley arrangement use two pulleys with an equal number sheaves? I have a recollection that the setup resulted in much rope friction. The solution was to replace one of the blocks with another with one fewer sheaves. Even with the reduced mechanical advantage lifting was still easier.

2. Does your trailer setup prevent you from placing a small bottle jack under the keel, or can you not reach inside the keel box and get to the lifting eye with the keel resting on the trailer?

Ken
Ken
bazthomas
2021-06-27T20:42:36Z
Hi Ken,
Already replied to you then lost it when referring to your post! Start again!
System looks like 12:1 with two 3 sheave pulleys on top of keel and presumably two more on the underside of the top coverplate but can't really see even by poking the phone camera into the hatch opening and taking a flash photo.
When the boat is on the trailer the keel sits on the centre member so it is up so high that you can't see the blocks on top of the keel as they are above the hatch in the dagger board casing.
I understand from the boat history that the lifting system is a Parker fitted modification to replace the original worm gear. So, as I see it, I can't slip it over a tide or trailer it out as the keel stays in the highest position, and I can't lower the keel when she's afloat as there is nothing to stop the keel dropping with no alternative restraint.
Hope this answers you questions. Do you have any ideas?
Regards
Barry
bazthomas
2021-07-13T21:15:52Z
Thanks for the help.
Finally had her lifted out, uphaul replaced with 8mm braid and rewound as 10:1. Works ok now
Barry
warbler
2021-08-09T10:26:58Z
I am just about to buy a Parker 21 no 27. It has a worm drive keel system and I am concerned that this may have issues as the other 21's I have seen have a pulley system.
I would be grateful if someone could get in touch ASAP to help either put my mind at rest of alert me to any issues.
When looking at the boat I wound the keel down and up about 3" until it touched the trailer with very little effort.
I see from Barry's post that his 21 had the worm drive changed, was this because they were an issue or does anyone on here still have the worm drive fitted and can make contact.
All help appreciated.
Many thanks
rgds
Martyn
Peter Scrivens
2021-08-13T20:58:24Z
Hi Barry,
Glad the system working ok. However I have seen on another early P21 that they had used an ordinary mild steel pin in the top roller and not stainless as expected today. Whether this was accidental or normal practice in the early days? Anyway this had corroded and caused the top roller to seize making the keel difficult to raise.

As you say the roller cannot be accessed with the boat on a trailer as the keel needs to be lowered a little way and this can only be done when the boat is afloat or on a cradle.

Peter (P235 Zephyr)
bazthomas
2021-10-09T21:23:04Z
Hi Peter,
Sorry, hadn't seen your comment till today. That would certainly make a difference and although mine works it is not easy to raise. In fact it is extremely hard work and if I can't get it sorted this winter the boat will have to go. It was a doddle on my SuperSeal 26 I had 20 years ago but I bought the 21 as I wanted something to sail on my own without too much effort.
I'll have a look at that when she comes out of the water in a couple of weeks.
Thanks
Barry
DickG
2021-12-21T14:29:01Z
Barry,

I'm not familiar with the detailed layout of the P21 keel, but I have re-engineered the hoist system for my P275 and I believe the keel systems are similar.

Have you found a solution to the issue, or are you still trying?

Regards

Dick
Dick
Dark Star P275 No 36
bazthomas
2022-01-06T12:26:15Z
Hi Dick,
Thanks for your reply on the keel raising/lowering thread.
As I said I'm not happy with the effort required to hoist the keel, it's a lot of effort which I don't want being a bit of an ancient mariner.
You may have read previously I've changed the string, washed and checked the blocks ( they are Harken ball bearing) and they are ok), greased the sliders and tried three different ratio settings and it works best at 10:1.
I haven't yet checked the roller pin as suggested by another contributor but will do that when I go down to do some more work in a couple of weeks time.
Obviously with the inside case blocks, the deck block and the turning block there is a lot of friction there but I can't think of any other improvements I could make to reduce effort.
It is a ballasted keel which yours is too so if you have any suggestions I'd be please to hear them.
I could of course fit self tailing winches which would make handling easier but as they would cost a fortune I've ruled out that option.
Thanks
Barry
chris nichols
2022-01-07T18:50:22Z
Hi Barry,
As with DickG i cannot comment specifically on the 21 but on my 27 the alignment of the rope was very important - It must not touch anything except block wheels on its way from the keel to the clutch. even the slightest contact with anything like a block cheek or slot/hole edge will increase friction astronomically. The line should be the lightest you can handle - modern rope is so strong you can go as thin as possible - I use 10mm on my P27. I have also adjusted the alignmnet of the floating mast block between the keel top and the deck organiser block so the lead in and out is absolutely correct preventing any touching. The keel on the 27 weighs just 375lbs and I have a 3:1 arrangement in the keel slot and with that I can easily lift the keel using the rope where it goes past the mast, but is a bit harder at the winch end. I also found that the keel winch needs to be in good nick as internal friction seems to increase as the load is applied!
I have ceased using any lubricants in the box as they all go foul after a short while.
The main enemy here is mud which works itself up into the keel box over each low water drying period - no cure for that yet except using the boat more!
BW, Chris
DickG
2022-01-09T19:01:06Z
Originally Posted by: bazthomas 

Hi Dick,
Thanks for your reply on the keel raising/lowering thread.
As I said I'm not happy with the effort required to hoist the keel, it's a lot of effort which I don't want being a bit of an ancient mariner.
You may have read previously I've changed the string, washed and checked the blocks ( they are Harken ball bearing) and they are ok), greased the sliders and tried three different ratio settings and it works best at 10:1.
I haven't yet checked the roller pin as suggested by another contributor but will do that when I go down to do some more work in a couple of weeks time.
Obviously with the inside case blocks, the deck block and the turning block there is a lot of friction there but I can't think of any other improvements I could make to reduce effort.
It is a ballasted keel which yours is too so if you have any suggestions I'd be please to hear them.
I could of course fit self tailing winches which would make handling easier but as they would cost a fortune I've ruled out that option.
Thanks
Barry



Barry,

The P275 keel is a solid cast iron one, weighing around 320Kg, rather more than the P27 one that Chris Nichols has. My boat did have one of the infamous Dutton electric winches and I decided that they were not a wonderful idea. I did try reinstating the 6 part purchase the boat was built with, but the effort with the blocks that I had was more than I was comfortable with, so I built an electro-hydraulic hoist system which continues to work very successfully. The details are on a thread on this forum - I'll send a reference so you can find it.

In the meantime, as Chris says, the reeving of the hoisting line is critical. It is worth googling how to reeve a six-part purchase to check that you have it right - the two 3 sheave blocks should have their axles at 90 degrees to each other. Also check that the sections of rope to the "dead" end and to the exit sheave do not have any unfair leads at any point in the keel's travel. Using a thin line will help reduce friction - quite a thin dyneema line can be used while still keeping an adequate factor of safety. Like Chris, I have avoided grease in the keel box - where we are it just collects mud and ceases to lubricate.

Hope you find a suitable solution!

Best wishes,

Dick
Dick
Dark Star P275 No 36
DickG
2022-01-09T19:12:09Z
The thread about my keel hoist is here:-

Parker 275 - New Keel Hoist System 
Dick
Dark Star P275 No 36